crellston

A Spanish travel. Blogger and her partner were assaulted by a gang in India . The woman was raped repeatedly by seven men over a period of two hours.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/three-men-in-india-charged-with-gang-rape-of-spanish-blogger-jjnmbs39f

Why anyone would want to visit a country which has so little respect for women and where the government is either unwilling or unable to do anything about it is beyond me.

kja

Appalling. Thank you for passing on the news report.

CaliforniaLady

These so-called men should have a certain forced medical procedure.

thursdaysd

Thanks for posting this, crellston. I saw it but have already posted similar threads more than once.

I've glad I've already been to India (and China), although I would still like to visit the north west. I certainly wouldn't go solo again, though.

crellston

Hi Thursdaysd,

I was thinking of you only last week when we were walking ours friends’ dogs along the Thames at a very wet Henley!

I have only visited India and China briefly and a long time ago and doubt I will return as both are on my “no fly” list. Beautiful countries I know and the chances of anything bad happening are slim but I just can’t accept the institutionalised racism and misogyny in these countries

jacketwatch

I just sent you something on messenger. Thank you!

kja

Gang rapes in India are almost always crimes against women and occur within a misogynistic culture. Bringing attention to these gang rapes is thus of great potential relevance to a specific group of potential travelers -- women.

Moderator1

We have deleted twelve fourteen posts that are off-topic, some containing personal attacks. In addition, one post was edited to remove a response to one of the deleted posts. The crime situation in other countries/continents is not relevant to the topic of this thread.

thursdaysd

Hi crellston,

I've been trying to persuade my elder sister she should move to Thamesfield! I am settled into a CCRC here in the US, but I do need to visit the UK again. I'm very glad I visited China and India when I did, but even though I would love to see Tibet and Ladakh, I doubt either will happen. I particularly don't want to visit China under the current regime.

crellston

When you do get over to the UK , make sure to let me know. The chances are we will either be in London or Oxfordshire and either way it would be great to meet up. An Indian friend raves about Ladkah, but even though she has family in India she says she would not be comfortable returning any time soon.

CaliforniaLady

Here is the US Sate Department warning on rapes of women:

"Sexual Assault: Travelers should be aware that there have been reported cases of sexual assault, including rape, of U.S. citizens traveling throughout India. U.S. citizens, particularly women, are cautioned not to travel alone in India"

https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...ges/India.html

Thank you for posting, crellston. If you made even one woman think twice about travelling to India, then it was time well spent. Let's hope the conditions change for the better someday.

crellston

Let’s hope so CaliforniaLady!

I was chatting with an Indian friend a few days ago about this issue. Her daughter was due to spend a few months staying with family in Mumbai and then travel around the country. The family visit is still going ahead but the rest of the trip is not, as she feels it is just not safe for her to visit some of the more rural areas she was planning even though she would be accompanied by other family members.

progol

I've been hesitant to respond since this has become such a hot button issue here, but I really must disagree with the premise that people should not travel to India. I don't minimize the risks or deny the tragedy where women are treated so poorly. This is real and sexual violence is a fact of life there. And India can certainly do more, though I do think there have been some changes made since the tragic rape and murder of a young woman on a bus over a decade ago.

But, if you're discussing TRAVEL, being aware of risks ANYWHERE is essential. And India doesn't even rate the highest for sexual violence! Do you remember the horrific attack in Morocco a few years ago? Or the murder in Thailand? There are many reasons not to travel to a lot of different places, and danger can exist in a lot of places.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...ries-for-women

Mexico rates high on the list, too, especially for women. A country's politics is another reason why SOME people don't travel to a specific country (I know that there are people who won't come to the US and I understand that!). And South Africa tops the list. Or fear of terrorism. Lots of that happening in the world today, too.

While I certainly I wouldn't recommend that woman travel independently in India (or any of the other countries mentioned in the above article), those of us who like to travel to a place like India can hire a driver and guide. My husband and I visited India twice, both times, we were always accompanied by a driver and frequently with a guide, but we are fortunate to have the resources to travel.

People make choices based on their personal interests, values and risk tolerance. So yes, there are terrible things that happen in India. And in South Africa. And in Mexico. And in a long list of places that people still travel to. And there are many places I wouldn't go to now, primarily due to politics. But I wouldn't tell people NOT to visit them -- just to be aware and be prepared for whatever those risks may be.

crellston, I appreciate your travel knowledge and experience, and have gained a lot from your many posts, but I don't agree with your message here.

CaliNurse

Bravo, Progol. I've been pondering an adequate response, but you articulated it better than I could.
There are periodically similar points made here and on other forums about boycotting countries due to crime, politics, animal treatment, etc.

"...institutionalised racism and misogyny in these countries." Violent crimes against anyone--man or woman--are horrendous. Institutionalized racism? If that's a reason to avoid a place, you won't travel anywhere!

jacketwatch

If you look it up, you will find that other countries do have higher incidents of these crimes. This doesn’t minimize is happening in India, but I think it puts it in perspective. With all due respect. JM2C.
No further comment.

kja

It seems to me that there are many reasons to decide to travel to, or to avoid traveling to, any particular country. And I agree that the choice is one to be made by each potential traveler.

That said, I have been reminded recently that cross-country comparisons are very tricky. (Perhaps that's one reason why the moderators noted that this particular thread is about travel in India, period.) AFAIK, India is the ONLY country for which the US State Department has a current advisory advising women, in particular, to avoid traveling alone. (It had issued advisories against solo travel by any person -- regardless of gender -- for some other countries / areas.) The uniqueness of that advisory to women seems notable to me, as a woman who travels alone.

I appreciated the link progol provided to an article on women's travel risks, but while it seems reasonable, it doesn't say enough about the "Women's Danger Index" developed by the Fergussons to allow a considered assessment of the measure's reliability or validity. That said, it would seem to offer potentially valuable insights for any woman to consider as she weighs her travel priorities. Whatever one makes of that index, I would suggest that it is irrelevant to the question of whether there is value in notifying Fodorites when gang rapes in India are reported. I, for one, appreciate those notifications.

Perhaps it may seem a fine point, but aside from posting the US State Department warning, I don't think anyone on this thread has actually advised against travel to India or anywhere else, though some have expressed opinions -- sometimes strong opinions -- about doing so. Aren't we each entitled to an opinion about travel risk/benefit ratios and/or opinions about what we think others might want to consider? Aren't we free to share those opinions on this travel forum?

Ultimately, I echo CaliforniaLady's sentiment: "Let's hope the conditions [in India} change for the better someday."

thursdaysd

I have found that US travel advice can be alarmist, and usually cross check it with the UK, and sometimes Australia. This is what the UK Foreign Office says about India:

"Sexual assaults occur. This includes attacks on foreign female visitors in tourist areas and cities.Female travellers often experience verbal and physical harassment by individuals or groups of men. Serious sexual attacks involving both Indian and foreign nationals have been reported. British women have been victims of sexual assault, including rape, in Goa, Delhi, Rajasthan, Mumbai and Kerala. Avoid isolated areas, including beaches, when alone at any time of day."

Also, India is an exceptionally misogynistic society. Where else do you hear of dowry deaths and bride burning? Obviously, that's not going to happen to travelers, but it is indicative of the habit of mind of the men you will encounter. I think I may have read of a case where having a driver was insufficient protection. Certainly, traveling as a couple with a man won't protect you.